Special Education for Beginners | Managing Paraprofessionals, Special Education Strategies, First Year Sped Teachers, Special Ed Overwhelm, Paperwork for Special Education Teachers

The Reverse Inclusion Strategy: A Conversation with Jen and Meghan from Moms Managing Behavior

• Jennifer Hofferber - Special Education Teacher and Coach • Episode 205

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We are continuing the theme of Inclusion during the month of April.

In my opinion, inclusion is one of the most important things that we can do for our students, but finding ways to do that can be challenging, especially when your program is self-contained and when your students are with you, the majority, if not all, of the school day. 

You're going to have to get creative in finding those opportunities. And that's where today's guests come in. 

 Megan and Jen from Moms Managing Behavior have created a program in their school where they are doing some reverse inclusion. I found this idea and this conversation very enlightening, so I hope you do too. 

Listen in as we discuss:

  • Defining Successful Inclusion 
  • Implementing Reverse Inclusion
  • Training for Inclusion
  • The Impact of Reverse Inclusion
  • Advice for Educators-Where to begin

Resources Mentioned:

Writing individual impact statements based on a student’s unique disability  and needs can be a big struggle AND a big time suck.! And in case you haven't noticed...extra time is not something you have a lot of.

My IEP Impact Statements Growing Bundle will give you  the resources you need to make writing impact statements a breeze.  





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Speaker 1:

Hey there and welcome back to another episode of Special Education for Beginners. I'm your host, jennifer, and on today's show we are continuing the discussion of inclusion. In my opinion, inclusion is one of the most important things that we can do for our students. We should be providing them time with general education peers, because that's going to be their reality when they become adults. But finding ways to do that can be challenging, especially when your program is self-contained and when your students are with you the majority, if not all, of the school day. You're going to have to get creative in finding those opportunities, and that's where today's guests come in. Megan and Jen from Moms Managing Behavior have created a program where they are doing some reverse inclusion. Like I said last week, reverse inclusion isn't something that I have experience with. I really didn't even know it was a thing, because I never had the need for it, as my students spent the majority of their day in inclusive settings to begin with. But I found this idea and this conversation very enlightening, so I hope you do too.

Speaker 1:

Let's get to it. Hey, special educator, are you overwhelmed by the absurd amount of paperwork on your to-do list? Do you wish you had the skills to build a rock solid team with your staff. Do you find yourself scouring the internet for how to meet the needs of each student on your caseload? Well, hey there. I'm Jennifer Hopperberg, an award-winning veteran special education teacher and current instructional coach, who has walked in your shoes through each of these challenges and, yes, I have the metaphorical blisters to prove it. I have cried your tears and felt your pain, and now I'm here to support you in the way I wish someone would have been there to support me.

Speaker 1:

Listen in each week as my guests and I dish out practical wisdom to help you handle all the classroom curveballs that are thrown at you and learn how to laugh in spite of the chaos, to celebrate those small yet significant victories that only a special educator can understand. So are you ready? Wipe your tears and put on your superhero cape, because together we are going to learn how to survive and thrive in the ever crazy, completely overwhelming laugh. So you don't cry. Profession of being a special education teacher. Well, hello, megan and Jen. Welcome to the Special Education for Beginners podcast. I think this is my first interview with two guests and I am so excited to chat with the both of you. It's great to be here. Thanks for having us. Before we get started, would you share a little bit about who you are and what your journey is within the field of special education? Sure.

Speaker 2:

So I got started in the field, specifically in applied behavior analysis, by accident when, during my senior year at Rutgers, I signed up for a fieldwork experience at what I thought was the daycare and instead showed up at the Douglas developmental disability center, which is a school for kids with autism. So you know, I walked in the first day, quickly realized I had signed up for the wrong class, but absolutely loved the experience and it's what got me into pursue my master's in special education, my BCBA, and then you know my career path.

Speaker 3:

I have a very similar story to Jen. That's actually how we met. We both worked at the same school, at Rutgers. So I was a student at Rutgers looking for a job. It was really close to my dorm and I had a playground and I thought this is great and I kind of just fell into the field of applied behavior analysis as well. So I also did my master's degree at Rutgers and worked at the school there, and then after about 10 years I left and went to public school, which is where I am now, and I brought Jem along with me for the fun public school ride that it has become. And so we both have been at a school district in New Jersey for about eight or nine years.

Speaker 1:

That is amazing, you know, I hear that so often how people just kind of land in this position, and that happened for me as well. I was going to be a kindergarten teacher my whole life and then during my field experience, I went into a special education classroom. I was like God was trying to tell me something. This is where you're meant to be, and so it's kind of neat to hear those stories from other people. Well, god was trying to tell me something. This is where you're meant to be, and so it's kind of neat to hear those stories from other people.

Speaker 1:

Well, this month's theme is inclusion, and last week I did a broad overview of what inclusion is and what it could look like at different buildings, and so today I just wanted to talk with you two about inclusion in more detail and also the concept of reverse inclusion. I know that you've mentioned that to me a little bit, so I'm curious to hear about that. So I know that there are many perspectives on what inclusion is and there are various versions of what inclusion looks like in different school settings, but I want to hear from you two about what does inclusion mean to you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so this is a topic that Megan and I have been talking about a lot recently in terms of what inclusion is and what we hope inclusion will look like in settings that we go into. So oftentimes I think that people viewing inclusion as just creating those opportunities for students, so almost like allowing a student with special needs to come into the classroom, whereas you know we really view it as it being an opportunity for students to go into the environments, into an accepting class and school culture that really promotes their success and allows them to practice the skills that they've been working on and to grow, you know, socially and academically when appropriate. So you know, a lot of what we do involves working with educators, professionals, community members to educate them on inclusion and this view and ways that they can make environments more successful for, you know, students and individuals with special needs, and you know we've been really lucky that our school district has been so open to working with us and allowing us to work with the teachers and the staff to create this accepting classroom culture.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think, like the evolution of even just inclusion, for ourselves it's kind of been a journey over the past nine or so years in public school. So when we first started, you know, our idea of inclusion was how could we get the students in the self-contained classroom to be, you know, included in the gen ed classroom? So one of the first places we looked was related arts, and I know, after talking to a lot of districts, that's something that people often do, right, so having the students go into gym or music or art or technology or library or things like that where they're able to go into the class, you know, with their gen ed peers. But we kind of hit a few obstacles there because we were taking kids from a self-contained environment and just kind of putting them in a larger classroom with less supports and a fast moving pace and something you know, a lot of skills that they didn't have, and what we wound up seeing is a lot of more challenging behavior. And then, of course, they had to be removed from the setting, and so we first went to the district and asked if we could have our own self-contained specials. That way we could have them go to the specials but work on the skills needed and like it's skills that you don't really think about, right, Like being able to transition in art class from the library to the activity in gym class, being able to take your turn and tolerate losing and tolerate not being on the team with a friend, right, All these skills that are often, you know, barriers for kids, you know, in the special ed world. And so we did start doing that and that was really successful. We're really able to kind of pinpoint, you know, skills that they were needed to kind of bridge the gap to get them to go into their, their gen ed specials.

Speaker 3:

But we also were like, okay, well, that's not enough, right. And also sometimes we always joke it kind of backfired on us because we would always choose things the student likes, like the student really likes music, let's integrate them for music. But we actually found that they wanted to do what they want to do in music and not what the teacher wants them to do. So sometimes choosing, like their preferred activity, um, caused more challenging behavior because it was like, oh, I don't get to just draw whatever I want, I actually have to follow the lesson, Um.

Speaker 3:

And we also found, as the grades, the students get older, in grades right, Like third, fourth grade, when you go into an art class you're learning about artists and different drawing strategies and in, you know, in music you're learning about composers and how to read music, and so sometimes you know, the learning challenges kind of caught up to us, which, of course, we kind of looked at other areas that we could include, you know. So we looked at areas maybe non-academic but opportunities for socialization. So snack morning groups, read alouds, any like guest things, like it's Lunar New Year this week. So there have been a few Lunar New Year presentations in the Gen Ed classrooms that our students have been able to go and participate. And again, those were all really great but they're pretty limited.

Speaker 3:

Obviously, lunch and recess was a place we looked for inclusion great, but they're pretty limited. Obviously, lunch and recess was a place we looked for inclusion. We always have this joke that if you've been in an elementary school cafeteria, it is a lot of barriers for anyone, let alone children who may have some sensory needs. It is loud, they have like 10 minutes to eat, it smells. I myself don't love going in there. So you know it wasn't always successful for our students and they weren't really getting the socialization you know that we needed. And then, of course, the last place we always looked was academics. If a student was academically available and behaviorally available to go push in, then, you know, then we would have them go in.

Speaker 3:

So we really kind of had to brainstorm because a lot of the things we've mentioned didn't really work for our students right and they weren't having success in the school and we really wanted to push those socialization.

Speaker 3:

So we kind of came up with this we thought we coined the term but apparently it's out there of reverse inclusion, where we actually had our gen ed students come in to our classroom and we found that to be really successful for many reasons, one being that the student was on their own turf right, so they were in their classroom where they had maybe their break area or their calm down area or their items that you know are their preferred items, stuff that they knew, and so it kind of eliminated a lot of barriers like transitioning, which could be hard for kids, and again just going into a new space with a lot of noise, a lot of sensory overload, come into the classroom and work on those skills like socialization and game playing and crafts, like all of those things that they might have been able to push in for.

Speaker 3:

But instead of having the gen ed kids come into our room in the environment that our students are familiar with, and we really found that to be a huge success in our school.

Speaker 3:

And one of our concerns I know people always ask us this is well, how do you get kids to want to come into reverse inclusion, right? So it was a little something we were kind of nervous about, like maybe we're going to start this program and we won't have Gen Ed students, you know, sign up, and in our district we did have them get permission slips from their parents agreeing that during, like you know, non-main academic periods they were able to push in and we actually had surprisingly a huge amount of kids actually too many that we wound up not even be able to take all the kids who signed up. So I think we found that it was really beneficial, you know, for the not only our students but also the gen ed students, that they were able to come into the classroom no-transcript and it's been like a really big success to work on all of those you know social skills that we want to work on and about our own turf you know that's amazing.

Speaker 1:

I've never had the opportunity to implement something like this, but I think I can just see the benefits of it and I think that at my building or I actually work within a district, I'm an instructional coach but at my building where I used to teach, I could see you can kind of pick out those kids that are going to sign up for something like that. I call them my little future special education teachers. They are drawn towards those types of children and so I can see how you know you could improve social skills. You could. Just having those role models would be just a really great idea. I feel like you're enhancing empathy for those kids when you're exposing neurotypical students to your special needs kiddos so I think that's amazing to your special needs kiddos, so I think that's amazing. So can you share an example of just a little bit more of how it was successful and what types of things that you did when you were doing that reverse inclusion?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. So. One of the things that we did actually prior to doing it was we actually did a training for the Gen Ed peers and one of the big things we have a lot of students who have AAC devices in our classroom and so we had our speech therapist come in and provide a training on how to use an AAC device and she actually brings a device to let the gen ed students try themselves, which, of course, all kids. They're usually on iPads, right, so most kids just love to be able to play with them. They always wonder, you know, when they see students in our hallways with these devices, like what they are. But I think the biggest lesson that that taught them again was this empathy and understanding and it kind of trained them like we would practice with them. We would say, well, what's your favorite color? And they would have to navigate. You know, whatever this program was, to answer the question. They realize it's not that easy and that it takes time and so that's important. You know, we try to teach them about wait time, that like when you're playing a game with a friend or if you're, you know, you know doing a craft and you want to take turns, like you need to give them time, and it's not necessarily that they don't want to respond to you, but sometimes it just takes them a little longer. So we kind of love doing the training ahead of time to kind of give them that better understanding. Of course you have to be really careful, you know, in a public school setting you can't just close with diagnoses, right, so we don't go in and say, okay, now you're going to be with all the kids with autism, right, but we just explain how people learn differently and things that you might see for learners who are still learning. You know certain skills, and so I think that has made it really helpful. And then the first time they come in, you know, it's kind of like a really like icebreaker games we play getting to know your friend, asking questions what's your favorite color, what did you do on the weekend? A lot of like social questions. And then from there we try to keep it very routine again for our learners to have success and for the students coming in, and so we'll have like a, you know, a visual schedule up on the board that says these are the maybe two or three things to do today. You know, maybe we're going to do a baking lesson and we're all going to, you know, make jello or something. So the directions will be up on the board. Everybody works together and we always are trying.

Speaker 3:

Again, one of the biggest focuses during this is increasing social skills, so we will always have like a question of the day or a specific thing that by the end of the you know 20, 30 minutes that we're doing this. I want both the you know special ed student and the general student to be able to answer that question. So an example would be you know what is your favorite holiday? No-transcript, okay, what was your buddy's you know favorite holiday? And really making sure, because I think sometimes too, for the neurotypical students who are pushing in it, you know they're shy at first, too right, they don't know what to expect, and so it's also getting you know stuff out of them as well. So kind of giving them a purpose and like a focus.

Speaker 3:

Always try to do things themed, you know, with whatever maybe the holiday is or the season might be, um, and you know anything that's really structured, right. So we really like science experiments. We've made slime, um. You know. We've made beaded necklaces, um, things like that, and then we do do board games. Um, we do that later in the year at. At first we used to start with board games, but there are so many challenges with board games that we have, and it's been very cold and snowy here in New Jersey, so we've had a lot of indoor recess where the kids kind of stay in the classroom and play games, and so they're getting a lot of that right now. So we throw in board games here and there to work on those skills. But I really like hands-on activities because it makes it enjoyable also for them and it's just really structured for our students and I think that's really helpful for them to understand. You know when the start of this is and when the end of the project is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah I was going to say. The other thing is that a lot of the strategies that we implement with our students on a regular basis are strategies that all students benefit from. So structure, routine, positive reinforcement, predictability. You know all students can thrive in that environment, so we find that everyone is really successful. Not just the students that are the buddies, but those peers as well love coming to the environment, like Megan said, because they know what to expect. Everyone's super friendly. There's a lot of reinforcement being given throughout, a lot of breaks, which you know just make it smoother for everyone in the class.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think doing all of that in a comfortable and familiar environment for those kids who have special needs, I feel like that's going to make them feel more supported and not put them in such a stressful environment. I can't tell you how intrigued I am by this concept and I kind of wish I could just go back to my early days of teaching and get a redo, because you said that you coined this. You said you thought you'd coined this term but you hadn't, and I know that I've heard it, but I've never seen it implemented and I've never talked to anybody who's done this. But I could truly get on board with this. So it's impressive how you've managed to combine social learning and academic support. Did the students come in like on a regular basis, or is there like different groups that come each day? Can you just tell me a little bit more about what this looks like?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So I think one of the biggest challenges and I think any special ed teacher, if you asked, one of their biggest challenges would say is scheduling, because we have students who have lots of different services and schedules and, you know again, we can only pull peers from a, you know the really non-academic periods, which isn't much in a school day. So as of now we do it either once a week or once every other week, and we usually do it towards the end of the day. It just kind of happens with our schedule and so we also choose the students who are aligned with the gen ed class. So these are students that the kids see all the time, whether they go in for morning group and lunch and snack, and other times they integrate.

Speaker 3:

So it's really it's great that they're able to, you know, get that access to their peers in smaller groups where they, you know there's more controlled environment and we have had to rotate. So sometimes we'll have kids do it for maybe eight weeks and then, you know, we kind of rotate to other students to kind of give everybody an opportunity. I would say at first, when we started, we definitely met with the gen ed teachers and we discussed who we thought would be a good peer model, Right, because you also don't necessarily want all of the students sometimes, you know, coming into the classroom, and especially in the beginning, when you want it to be successful, you know. So we did, you know, kind of choose certain students, but we did make sure that everyone did get the opportunity. You know, from year to year, you know, because I think it really is a valuable lesson for all of the students, and so we do kind of rotate throughout the year.

Speaker 1:

So what advice would you give to an educator who is kind of hesitant or unsure about either incorporating inclusion or trying something like reverse inclusion? You know where should they begin to start implementing some of these ideas? I know that there's a lot of teachers on the gen ed side who are scared about inclusion either way. Either way, and I think special education teachers, they want to do this but they don't always know how to start it, especially when it's not just a regular part of their school day. So what advice would you give to them?

Speaker 2:

So I would say, start from the top down, talk with the administration, the principal, the vice principal, whoever you have in your building and chat with them about what your ideas are. We found that that was such a good place to start, because our administration was so supportive of reverse inclusion and other clubs that we wanted to try and just having that buy-in and sharing the information with them first really like jump-started everything that we wanted to do, and then that helps us also schedule time to meet with the general education teachers, right? So I know it's hard after school or during preps or PD days to find time to meet with the general education teachers, right? So I know it's hard after school or during preps or, you know, pd days to find time to meet with everyone. But with our you know, administration support, we were able to carve out time to meet with, you know, the general education teachers to share our ideas, to educate them. Right? I think a lot of people who are feeling hesitant on starting this on the general education side just don't necessarily understand exactly what it's going to look like. So we want them to feel supported. We want them to have the information they need to be successful. We're not just all going in blind. But we find when we share whether it's general information about, you know, autism and strategies that would be effective, or really student specific information if that student will be going into their classroom more regularly we find that that puts them at ease. They know what to expect, they know who to call or who will be there to support them and we just have a really good working relationship. That just helps the student be more successful. You know, in those environments We've also met with the related arts teachers the last couple of years to talk with them about our classrooms, our students, you know, just in general, it's sometimes, you know, a big change for related arts teachers because most of our students are one to one.

Speaker 2:

So not only are they having seven students come into the room but also seven adults, you know, and just sharing with them that, like, where the staff are not here watching what you're doing, they're here supporting the students. You know they're here to help you. You know you can tell them X, y or Z and again I think it just takes the pressure off of like, okay, it's not all these adults watching my lesson. You know we're all here for the students and you know we're working together for them to be successful. And then we work with the students too.

Speaker 2:

So Megan talked about this before meeting with the students about Peer Buddies. We have a big autism acceptance initiative in April in our school and throughout our district. But you know, just ongoing education for our students. I actually just worked on a presentation for our high school unified arts class, where it is an inclusive arts class, about what it looks like to be a good friend and how what you put out there is what you get back, and that we should be acting the same way towards a peer, whether they have a diagnosis or not, and you know what to do if you feel uncomfortable and those types of things. And just making sure that the students have the information. I think you know the education and our field is always changing and special ed is always changing, so we stay up to date to then just share the most recent information so that everyone has the tools they need to feel comfortable and, you know, to help make the inclusion successful.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I guess, if I could, if I could just add, I was just going to say you know, we've shared this information before and we've done some talks about this before and people are always like this sounds amazing, like I want to do all of it, and I think our advice would be this took years and like many, many years of doing and I think you know, especially to get the buy in, you kind of have to slowly like pick, you know, pick and choose your battles, I would say, and you know, sometimes just saying I'm going to start this whole reverse inclusion program right away is definitely a challenge.

Speaker 3:

But I think, like John said, if you get the body and from administration and you create an accepting environment in the school by educating the peers, the teachers, the administration, you know you will have more, you know more success in doing this and start small, because, again, I think we've had all these ideas but they've definitely taken time and it's trial and error and you know we try not to get discouraged when something doesn't work out. You know we keep trying and we really, you know our ultimate goal is for the students to always be included as much as they can, and so you know, I say our advice would definitely be start small and then, you know, hopefully build up from there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I feel like that's really solid advice. Just don't try to implement everything all at once. And it's always so interesting to hear how special education in general is done at different districts. I know even within my district there's nine buildings and of inclusion looks somewhat different from my experiences, and that makes me realize that we as a whole need to learn about these variations and see them as opportunities for learning and for growth.

Speaker 1:

And then I get tickled when I see on social media when someone will ask a question and someone gives it like a definitive answer and are like no, you can't do it that way because you have to do it this way. And I just they get in this argument because you know that's not the way it's done in their district. And just because it's not done that way in your district doesn't mean it can't be done. So I think that what works for one setting might not be feasible in another. But I think putting new ideas out there is very important and I really appreciate you guys coming on and sharing this idea with us. You guys coming on and sharing this idea with us, I think it's a great, great idea. So thank you so much for coming on. Where can we if we wanted to learn more from you? Where can?

Speaker 3:

we find you out in social media. Yeah, so Jenna and I, outside of working in the public school, we've started our own business where we provide professional development. Clearly, we feel very passionate about these topics, so we're always wanting to share, you know, our knowledge and experience with other people. So we started a company during the pandemic called Moms Managing Behavior. We're moms and we like to manage behavior and so kind of how it started. And you know we like to do professional development of districts, we do parent trainings. So we have a website it's momsmanagingbehaviorcom, and you can find us on Facebook or Instagram at Moms Managing Behavior.

Speaker 1:

Well, great. Thank you again so much for taking the time to talk with me. It's been a pleasure to meet and hear from both of you today. I feel like your experiences and your insights could be so beneficial to many, many teachers, and I'm sure that the listeners are going to benefit greatly from what you guys have shared today. So thanks again. Thank you for having us.